How To Choose Your Successor

EPISODE 5
Continuing the conversation from the previous episode, Grace, Shaily, and Tim answer even tougher questions - How do you choose a leader? When should you start planning? What are the four character traits to look out for when assessing leadership potential?

Transcript

Grace Ann Chua [00:05]: When the time comes to pass the torch, how do you pick the right person? Welcome to Crafting Communities, your companion in your journey to shape a better experience for the people you care about. I’m your host, Grace. And today, we deep dive into the hows and whens of leadership succession with Shaily and Tim.

Grace Ann Chua [00:21]: Hi, Shaily. Hi, Tim. Welcome back to Crafting Communities.

Shaily Gupta [00:23]: Hi!

Tim Lee [00:24]: Thank you.

Shaily Gupta [00:24]: Good to be back again.

Grace Ann Chua [00:26]: Shaily, when and how should leaders start thinking about leadership succession?

Shaily Gupta [00:30]: There is a very interesting saying that if you have to plant a tree, plant today. So, in that context, if I were to say that if you have to start planning for succession, then start today. Uncertainties, unpredictable environment, they don’t give you warnings, they don’t give you what is ahead. In my mind, succession planning should be part of your culture, part of your processes of building talent in the organisation. Again, since I come from a large corporate environment, I can share some of the examples from the large corporate and see if this is applicable or if something can be tailored for the communities in the nonprofit sector. Like one of the examples I can use is that we used to use [the] nine box model. The nine box model was largely built around your performance – what is your current performance, and how consistently have you been performing, and on potential. So you would kind of plot on X axis your performance, which is low, moderate to high, and your potential assessment that you have the ability to take on higher roles in the organisation from low, moderate to high on a Y axis.

Grace Ann Chua [01:44]: And the person who would be plotting this would be the leaders looking at existing staff or existing team members?

Shaily Gupta [01:50]: So, this used to be part of the performance appraisal process. So, when you do annual performance appraisal, there are certain KPIs and goals which have been given to you which determine your performance. That ‘tick, tick, tick’ you have done all of them, well, you’re a high performer. Potential is more about, does the person have the ability to do roles which is one level above what the person is doing. The answer is yes or no. Either you say, “She’s great in payroll processing and I don’t see her doing anything more next two years. She can continue to do payroll processing.” The other thing that you can say is, “She’s great at payroll processing. But the way she smartly applies modification of processes, process optimisation, I see her becoming manager of shared services tomorrow.”

Grace Ann Chua [02:38]: Got it. So if I’m a listener hearing this nine box model, which you can check out in the show notes, it’s about thinking about the current team that you have and almost doing a mini assessment evaluation of what is the current performance and potential performance.

Shaily Gupta [02:57]: Yeah. The current performance and the potential. And typically, what happens is, when you do the current performance evaluation and the potential assessment of the person, you’re able to build a list of high potentials, which we typically use an acronym called HIPO . And these  HIPO become your talent pipeline for possible successions for any critical role in the organization. So, this is how across all levels in a large organisation that people look at building a talent pipeline. Having said that, in a very small organisation, if your entire organisation size is 50 people, I don’t know how much you can over-engineer these processes. I’m sure, Tim, since you’ve worked in large and small both, I’m sure you will have a perspective on this.

Tim Lee [03:46]: Yeah, if I may just add on to what you share. So, I’ve had the chance to work on a high potential program. And you’re right, when you try to identify potential or you develop a high potential program, that is quite separate from the performance management system. So, some of the bigger companies, they employ consultants, they run them through leadership assessment centers, and so on. They make them do profiling and try to identify whether they have those potential. I remember in my own experience, for myself, I can remember four distinct things that we look for for a young person that we think might have the potential to be developed further in the long term. So, connective ability— how they think and how quick they are to learn things, and so on. That’s one.

Tim Lee [04:33]: I think there’s also a second one, which is pretty important. Some call it emotional intelligence. It’s actually people ability. How you relate with people, how you manage upward, downward, and especially outside, if you are dealing with clients and beneficiaries. So, what is that person’s ability in that field? I’m sharing this because I think it’s quite universal. And it’s something that we should all aspire to – cognitive ability and also people ability. The third one is actually change and learning agility. Notice I use the word agility now, because it is not an ability, it’s really how fast you adapt in terms of changing, in terms of learning. So that’s also important. The last is what we call ‘do you want it’, which has to do with your motivation and your resilience. So, I think this is a challenge also for big companies. They invest in somebody high potential and then they say, “No, I have a change of plan, family,” or, “I don’t believe in this anymore. I want to start a baking business.”

Shaily Gupta [05:39]: “I don’t want to take up that role.”

Grace Ann Chua [05:42]: “Yeah. I’m happy here.”

Tim Lee [05:44]: Yeah. Do they have the motivation? And that is actually quite a challenging factor, because that one may change over time, and sometimes it’s influenced by how the companies treat them, too.

Shaily Gupta [05:52]: Totally.

Tim Lee [05:52]: Yeah. So, I think having this pipeline of young talents is definitely important. You develop them as early as possible. I think leadership training shouldn’t be, you do it after you become a manager, it’ll be too late. As early as possible. And I’ve seen quite a few companies do that, and that’s good. But there is also something that is really just succession planning. So I remember in Siemens, we have this room in Singapore. It’s a meeting room, but we converted it into a room where we can actually see who are the talents ready for the next role. So, we have these locked sliding panels, [in the] whole of Asia-Pac, who are the high potential to step up into the next role. Should I be revealing this?                                  

Tim Lee [06:38]: But that was before. So yeah, we take it seriously. We actually have names, and we put it in front so that whenever we have a visiting business leader, we bring them into the room, we give them an update. So they are also aware who is the next one, right? But it’s always not one person, but a few persons. Now, this is what big companies do – talent pipeline, succession planning –  but not all can afford that.

Grace Ann Chua [07:03]: But what about small companies?

Tim Lee [07:05]: So that is really, really different, right? For small companies, you really can’t afford that. So, you have no choice. So for me, I would recommend what I call “best case scenario” and “worst case scenario”. Best case scenario, you already have a team, you have some very good fellows and you can develop them, send them for training, stretch them, test them out, groom them. Maybe the CEO should spend a lot of personal time with them. Have them participate in strategy planning. Expose them. So, [taking the] time to groom them and test them out. That is the ideal. You have enough time, you have the talent existing internally, and you can invest in them.  

Grace Ann Chua [07:48]: That’s the best case scenario.

Tim Lee [07:49]: Yeah, best case scenario. The worst case is, “Okay, Tim is tired of this. I need to go, I give you two months’ notice.” So, what does the small company do? What does the board do? Then we go back to that same question why succession planning is important. It’s very disruptive, especially the key guys. So what do you do then? I think that’s where we need a collective response. I would recommend that as an executive director or CEO, and his leadership team, they [should] take this mindset of what we call “collective succession planning”. So in a performance roundtable, don’t just talk about my team member, this person is the top person in the whole company, should deserve the top award. But look across and say, “Hey, let’s own this together. It’s not my guy, my direct report, but it could be somebody in the other departments that we need to watch out for.”

Tim Lee [08:42]: And then, again, we go back to potential. Potential is not just about, “Hey, I think this is the one.” It’s also about having a plan. How do we develop this potential? So a collective mindset says that we are a team, we are a leadership team, and we are helping to look for the next person in the next generation, the coming up, the emerging young talents. So, we take ownership of them to the point that we might even say, “Hey, how about [for] the next three years, is it okay if we do a cross transfer? Let that person work under me?” . And maybe because there are certain things that my department is doing that is useful for that person to learn. So, we collectively take ownership of that. Even at the board level, I think that’s so important. It will be good if [the] board is constantly on the lookout. In the sector, you will have the chance to see somebody from another organisation or maybe not even in the social service sector that you think might be very suitable. So, I will urge also, that board directors or even the current leadership team, you be on the lookout. Keep your eyes open, so you’re not stuck. You already have some people in mind, you also test them out. Get them to volunteer, perhaps?

Grace Ann Chua [09:55]: I have a question. So, you’re saying about, kind of assessing, as a leadership team, potential candidates. Do you let them know that they are high potential or do you keep it a secret? Do you communicate to someone who you’re grooming that, “I am grooming you.”

Shaily Gupta [10:12]: In fact I was thinking, “I knew that you would ask this question!” So, this is almost like a double-edged sword. And I always call the talent management in any company a double-edged sword. If I tell that these are my high potential guys, they may face hostile situations, because of the competitive nature and their natural potential capability may go down. This is the worst scenario.

Grace Ann Chua [10:42]: I was actually thinking, alternatively, that if you tell someone they’re high potential, it might get to their heads and be like, “Oh, I’m so great.”

Shaily Gupta [10:48]: Yeah, that’s another one. Exactly, the complacency could set in. These are some of the negatives, I would say. The positives are then the environment, if it is a very nurturing environment, then the ecosystem is working towards creating a path of least resistance for the person so that he or she can deliver their best performance. That there is an immediate acceptance that is getting created. So, it can work both ways, frankly. Typically, I think, we’ve debated this a lot, at least, me as a CHRO at the helm in many organisations, and I have always believed in transparency. And I’ve always believed in the fact that let the person know and let the ecosystem know. Dealing with this rough situation is also part of grooming. How you create acceptance of yourself as a performer or as a leader is also part of your training. Instead of keeping it under the carpet, not telling people, so and so is a high potential, I think, “Why was she invited for this Chairman’s meeting, why that person was not invited,”-  that creates a more gossip culture in my mind.

Shaily Gupta [11:57]: I’m quite happy for somebody to walk up to me as a CHRO and say that, “Why is this person invited for a Chairman’s meeting and why was I not invited?” I can say that person is a high potential person. You joined the club, you would also get all these. I know it is hard, easier said than doing. It requires a lot of management. But transparency, that’s my personal leadership style. I prefer transparency and honesty. That goes a long way, I personally think, though the path is a little hard.

Grace Ann Chua [12:27]: The thought in my mind also as you both are sharing about creating a culture of collective leadership succession. I think most people go about the day to day not really thinking about leadership succession. So as a leader, yes, the concept or the thought of leadership succession may be familiar to you. But as someone who is a potential leader in the future, how do you communicate to help the rest of the organisation care about leadership succession as well?

Shaily Gupta [12:51]: So in my mind, it is not about they thinking about succession, because succession is a process. So if I’m a volunteer or if I’m a manager in an organisation, it depends on my motivation and achievement orientation. “Am I someday looking for a leadership role in the nonprofit? Am I aspiring to be wanting to head a nonprofit someday or any organisation, community or whatever. Is it in me?” So how do you inspire and sift out those people who are actually aspiring to take leadership roles because they think they can make an impact at a policy level and at a process level, or at a strategic level? There are some people who are grassroot workers and very happy to be grassroot workers, because they see their impact when they actually do things with their own hand. There are people who are wanting to contribute at a strategic level. And I think what, as a leader, you need to do is to sift these people out. Who are the ones who have that achievement orientation? Because you would see them contribute at a process, at an institutional level, instead of just being a good grassroot level. It’s my take. I don’t know. What’s your experience, Tim?

Tim Lee [14:09]: Yeah, a thought came to me, there’s such a thing called a reluctant leader. He doesn’t really want it but because he believed in the mission of the organisation, he will just step up and do the job. And because over the years, he has been groomed, he knows the ins and outs, so, he will be what I call a right person.  Even if he [doesn’t]  want to, he believes in that and so he will step up to it. I think we kind of talked about it just now. This thing about the organisation culture is very important. So one that is transparent, very accepting, it’s understood that among their workforce, there’ll be some people – they can do it, they are really good, so let’s give them some recognition. And while we may not tell them, “Hey, you are my number one candidate,” the ground will sense it. But I’m calling upon collective leadership more because I think the ownership for these talents is very important. Because I think you will lose talents as well, if you don’t tell them.

Tim Lee [15:14]: “Where am I going? You keep loading me, stretching me. What’s it for?” So that conversation transparency has to come out at some point. But I think, most young talents, they should be able to figure that out. There’s some investment in you – seize the opportunity, learn as much as you can and hopefully, your own long-term aspiration is aligned with where the company is headed. And if it’s aligned, then stay with us.  If not, then they will just look for the next job. So, that culture, that purpose of the company, I think it must be something that those you invest in really catch on to it. Otherwise, it is totally fruitless because you know that at some point, they will aspire for something else, somewhere else. If they don’t believe in ambition, and where the company’s headed, the chances of losing them, very high. And if you don’t invest in them, you don’t tell them, they say, “Yeah, it’s okay. I think this is just a job.” But if you can inspire them, and there seems to be a lot of care and concern from the other leadership members to develop them, to coach them, I think they feel very much at home and they may believe that this is where they want to stay for the longest time. So I think that might be something to really think about.

Grace Ann Chua [16:28]: Tim, how has this been like in your personal experience?

Tim Lee [16:31]: So in my own journey, in terms of succession planning for a small organisation like Caregivers Alliance, I think what we did was really to create a culture. Firstly, as I said just now, collective ownership of the talent pipeline. That means involving the managers, that we must come as one, and possibly, maybe one of them will step up to my role at some point in time. And to help the process along, we have had the ability to reorganise and create new departments, new senior manager roles, with the view that we strengthen what we call the leadership bench strength. So more people now have the opportunity to sit with me, as part of my leadership team, and to talk about strategy, talk about people. And so it goes.  

Tim Lee [17:21]: So, I think that is really helpful. Will I find my successor from this group? I hope so. Because ideally, I would hope to find somebody from within, who already knows the business, so to speak, and who is well accepted by the rest. I mean, we talked about this earlier. But while I look at the next bench, I also am looking down below, and we kind of had that conversation as well, right? If you have a high potential talent, you have to also give them the opportunity to develop quickly. And you’ll never know, maybe one of them will jump ahead of the rest. Right? If he’s so talented, so well received by even the senior manager, he/she at a very young age could be the next ED perhaps. So I think we don’t just look at the next level, we look at one level below.

Tim Lee [18:13]: My own thought is this: I think whatever it is, even within CAL, we would like to help raise the next generation of leaders. They could serve in CAL, but they can serve outside of CAL as well, especially the young ones. And I hope one day, if they had an opportunity to serve outside, from the experience they gain there, they can bring back to CAL as well. So it’s okay, whatever you invest in, you hope that one day, it will flow backward. So that’s my thought as well, that, yeah, I really look out for young talents and involve them. For example, we do have a couple of young talents that we have brought in. Some of them are really new to the sector as well. But we made sure that they took part in projects, collaborative projects. One of them even had an opportunity to lead the project team, even though she’s a junior, she’s a newbie. But the idea is that there’s a chance for everybody. You want to contribute and in a leadership role, why not? We have big projects, small projects. Some of these we can give it to a young talent and let the person be. So always create opportunities  for them to learn, to assume a leadership role, and just looking out for them.

Grace Ann Chua [19:24]: Yeah. Thanks so much for sharing that. My final question for today is, after all this conversation about leadership succession, what is one reflection or thought that you would like to leave with our listeners about leadership succession?

Shaily Gupta [19:34]: I think I’ll always say that do not leave leadership succession for chance. Continuously be on the lookout internally or externally for a person who has the vision, competence and acceptance. And second is to build a good talent pipeline within the organisation. And the third piece of advice I would have is, don’t have a reluctant leader leading your organisation as far as possible.

Tim Lee [20:03]: So for me, I’ve been giving this quite a lot of thought. We talked about succession planning, but I think it’s very much tied into two things: what is really this organisation about? Is the purpose big enough that even a young talent would say, “I’m not going to think about joining NVPC or whoever else, those big ones. I’m quite happy to be here, because it’s such a meaningful world. And there are enough things that I want to do that make it so meaningful that I want to stay.” So I think when we hire, whether at the entry level, mid-level, or even senior manager level, I think we should hire for retention. I’m not sure where this thought is leading me to, but I tend to feel that if we hire somebody, we will want to hope that person will stay. And we have to do everything possible to make the person stay, that he finds the work meaningful, there’s enough scope to grow and advance, and so on.

Tim Lee [21:02]: And I think succession planning could be about that as well. Because at different entry points, different levels in the organisation, put in the effort to make work interesting and meaningful. And the company can show that there’s every opportunity to grow. When I started, we are 26. We are going on to 43 and I think we can grow even further. When people see that, they know that, “No, I’m not just signing up to now, I’m signing up to the future.” Be patient and there is scope to grow and be groomed. And eventually, maybe one day, you will be an ED, and you might be a young ED, too, at 35. Actually, there are already some very young ED, at 20+, right?

Grace Ann Chua [21:48]: Yeah, it could be any age.

Shaily Gupta [21:50]: Yeah, why not?

Tim Lee [21:51]: If you’re really good, you will have energy and the passion to carry everybody forward. So I think that is the thing that I’m really excited about.

Shaily Gupta [22:02]: Very inspiring. Grace, should you and I put in an application to Tim? He has grown from 26 to 40. He has open roles.

Shaily Gupta [22:09]: Very inspiring, Tim.

Grace Ann Chua [22:10]: Thank you so much, Tim and Shaily, for joining us on this episode of Crafting Communities.

Tim Lee [22:15]: Thanks for the conversation.

Shaily Gupta [22:16]: Thank you.

Grace Ann Chua [22:17]: For our next episode, we’ll round up this segment on leadership succession by talking to Yi Qi and Jeremy from Volunteer Guitar Connection. They’ll give a peek into their community and what they’ve done to keep their volunteer group running for over ten years. Tune in next week, bye!

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